We speak with Kelly Ziemer, an assistant professor and researcher, about her journey to Amsterdam and her work exploring emotions, including her PhD dissertation on #self-love. Wading into the unknown and attuning to her emotions, Kelly began to align her life with her desires, and shares with us the lessons learned and magic met along the way. *Original music by Leslie Allison *Sound editing by Erin Ozmat *Logo and cover art by Kira Weiss, photography by Kendall Tichner *Produced by Patty Carnevale and Erin Ozmat *All rights reserved in podcast content and the Giving In™ trademark
We speak with Kelly Ziemer, an assistant professor and researcher, about her journey to Amsterdam and her work exploring emotions, including her PhD dissertation on #self-love. Wading into the unknown and attuning to her emotions, Kelly began to align her life with her desires and shares with us the lessons learned, and magic met along the way.
Links and extras from this episode:
Subscribe to our newsletter with episode highlights and more at givingin.substack.com.
Have feedback? Leave us a rating or review on your podcast platform of choice, or email us at givingin@substack.com.
Episode credits:
Episode 6: Giving in to Not Knowing with Kelly Ziemer
[00:00:00] Kelly: I know what people say that, like, Kelly, this is so crazy. You're going to Amsterdam, you like, have this PhD, people don't do this. And also, , people don't turn down these fellowship opportunities. And when I would tell people the story, after the fact in academia, they were like, this is so nuts. When I hear those people's reactions, it like furthers my fortitude and my strength in myself of this like inner voice and the inner knowing. Do you know what I mean?
[00:00:28] Patty: Welcome back to giving in our big hearted little show about experiences with surrender.
I'm Patty Carnival, and joining me is my co-host and friend, Erin Ozmat.
[00:00:43] Erin: In each episode, Patty and I have intimate conversations with guests who have experienced profound moments of surrender.
[00:00:49] Patty: We are so so lucky to be here today with the wonderful Kelly Lynn Ziemer. Kelly is a researcher, writer, and speaker whose work explores the very heart of being human.
[00:00:59] Erin: She holds a PhD in Social Welfare from the University of California, Berkeley. and wrote her dissertation on self love. She is an assistant professor at Leiden University and also conducts research at the University of Amsterdam.
[00:01:13] Patty: For over a decade, Kelly has been on a mission to better understand the stories we're telling ourselves. From working with people experiencing anxiety and depression, to those in drug and alcohol rehabilitation, to survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault, she has seen firsthand how stories lie at the heart of healing our trauma, rediscovering self love, and connecting with others.
[00:01:32] Erin: We couldn't be more excited to share her story today.
[00:01:35] Patty: Welcome Kelly!
[00:01:37] Kelly: Thank you for having me. This is going to be fun. I think,
[00:01:40] Erin: Yeah. Welcome. Welcome to our show.
[00:01:43] Patty:How has your week been? Has anything surprised you this week?
[00:01:47] Kelly: I was in Turkey last weekend for a conference and it was so lovely to like hear people speaking about ideas that they are really excited about and to be connecting with local people and to make new friends and have amazing food. So I felt very nourished coming back here to Amsterdam.
[00:02:07] Erin: Mm. I'm curious what this conference was about what was the focus of it?
[00:02:14] Kelly: It's like the European association for cognitive and behavioral therapies.
A really fascinating talk I attended was about positive CBT. This idea , , that in therapy, often we can get so burdened by all the things that feel really hard and the reasons that comes to therapy and what feels really hard and what their stuck moment is.
But with positive CBT, the focus is on , what went well for you today, or what would it take for us to stop meeting together? I thought that was such a beautiful question. Yeah. So that's actually more like solution focused therapy, which like positive CBT is kind of integrated, but that was a beautiful question.
[00:03:00] Patty: What would it take for us to stop to stop meeting together in therapy? , that's like profound to me because I mean, especially, in this Western culture where you kind of, once you have a client, you want to keep them.
I don't know if that's necessarily true for all therapy or all therapists, but, uh, the idea that, like, healing can, can be accomplished and then meeting may be unnecessary.
[00:03:25] Kelly: Yeah.
[00:03:25] Patty: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Erin: so related to what surprised me this week. I, said I want to take a break with two therapists that I had been seeing because I felt I had reached that point in our relationship Particularly on zoom where I had kind of gotten what I needed to get out of the funk I was in to overcome some of these core beliefs.
I was really struggling with and I was really scared To kind of say, I don't think this is needed right now, maybe later, but I want to kind of take it off the books and see how it goes. It's a little bit of like taking off the floaties, I think, in the pool and being like, I, I know I can swim, but. I don't have that safety mechanism anymore. And then when I did it, I felt some mourning, but I ultimately felt lighter.
[00:04:17] Kelly: Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful. You felt lighter. I mean, it's also so brave. And I think what Patty, what you were just saying is, for me, it's always, yeah, it's important to check in with my clients about like, you know, , what progress do you feel like you're making? I know that there are plenty of people who practice for what they see clients for years and years and years.
And for me, it's just not how I practice. It's the idea is really to like, Get some tools and some understanding about ourselves and others and then take it and try it out. Like you were saying, Erin for you. So you get to try it out all by yourself. And that also is really beautiful, right? Like the messiness of this responsibility.
And I think the resilience to cultivate it on your own and I had a therapist, when I was living in New York. So maybe like eight years ago, seven years ago. And I was dating a lot at this time. And I realized that when I was going to see him, I would like come with all of my dating stories.
Like, should I text this person back? Or should I ask him to go out? I got to this point where I realized that I actually wasn't taking my own action. Like I was with him. Before I would do things and I it wasn't cognizant to me like it was just what I was doing, but I didn't feel Like the self trust yet
and that was really such an interesting point for us to talk about, you know Like he didn't realize I was doing that either
[00:05:47] Erin: Yeah. I can totally relate to that. I'm curious, Patty, too, for you, have you ever let go of a therapist or considered it?
[00:05:56] Patty: Yeah, , for sure. I mean, I, I was in the process of finding a new therapist these last few months, and I actually saw three different people, , and now I'm with a therapist who I'm like, this is, working.
This is good. And you can kind of feel it. But with, with the second. therapist. , it was interesting because I think we both knew it. Like we're, we both knew like, oh, this might not be working. , I was trying to be as honest as possible and not do my thing of like, you know, fawning or like saying, and so I think certain things are okay.
I'm like, I'm a little disappointed in this, or, I feel like I need more guidance and, maybe you can give me some ideas and I can pick something, you know, like I, I, I needed some, that more support. And, I remember one, one session, she, she was like, and if you find in this X and these exercises of like making decisions that maybe we shouldn't work together, that's okay.
And I was, I was like, yeah, it was like the softest, kindest, it's strange to call it a breakup, but yeah, yeah, and I, it's, it's funny. Um, how much I will kind of go all the way to the end of something and then past it before I finally can let go.
[00:07:07] Erin: hmm. That hits.
[00:07:10] Kelly: Letting go, like, oh, I have so many thoughts about letting go, but, I definitely think parting ways with the therapist is a breakup. I think when, when there are therapists who are like so skilled in endings, that it can be such a helpful way actually to be intentioned about the endings that like don't really get in whether it's romantic partners or I would even say in, in certainly for me with like female friendships, I don't find a lot of female friends are like having very intentioned, thoughtful breakups, you know?
So I think like. You know, like a therapist breakup can be so helpful.
[00:07:49] Erin: Yeah. I love that you brought up intention because I feel like that's a really good segue into talking about your story
[00:07:56] Patty: that and also this, this self trust that you've developed and honed over time. I'm so curious about like how your spidey senses were activated and how you got to Amsterdam.
[00:08:08] Kelly: Yeah. So let's see. I'm like, where do I begin? ,
, I had started my PhD at Berkeley in 2016. So I was living in New York. I'd been there for seven years and I really knew that it was time for a change for me. So I was like, okay, I'm going to pursue this PhD in social welfare at UC Berkeley.
So I'd moved out there, but it really wasn't feeling like home to me . , it felt more like a layover, so to speak. And I moved around a lot like different countries and different cities or even apartments in cities. And like, I know when I feel comfortable someplace and I, I had lovely friends, actually friends that I'd known from New York or from childhood that were in San Francisco, but it just didn't feel right.
And I lived in, , Europe in my adolescence, , for five years. I lived in Brussels and I'd lived , in France a few times in my twenties. And I was just having this like hungering to be back in Europe. Um, and so a few years into my PhD, or actually I should say like two months into my PhD. I've been taking a , social welfare policy class. And the professor specializes in like international social policy. And he had a connection at Oxford. And I started talking to him about like, what would it be like to do kind of a partnership where I could study at Oxford? And that led to him to like months later, him sending me a flyer about a mindfulness Institute at the University of Amsterdam.
And now mind you, I had been studying mindfulness. From a research, uh, perspective and from a practitioner perspective for a little bit. And this professor had no interest in mindfulness. In fact, he told me like, my wife is trying to get me to, to practice mindfulness. I have no interest at all.
And somehow ended up on a listserv about this mindfulness institute at the University of Amsterdam, and he was like, Kelly, you should apply. Which it was so beautiful to feel so supported and just like seen, and all of a sudden for this. Like random email, you know, it's like the people that you kind of least expect, and then all of a sudden, you know, you receive an email one day with this PDF and this flyer.
And I'm like, what is this? You know? Um,
[00:10:22] Patty: a little tasty breadcrumb.
[00:10:24] Erin: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:26] Kelly: Like the breadcrumbs they appear. So, Yeah, I applied. I, like, took out a loan to actually be able to finance this month long stint in Amsterdam, and the first day that I was here, so this would have been, like, July 2018, I just had this feeling of, like, I need to figure out how to live here.
Um, and I had been to Amsterdam a few times, like in my teens and also in my 20s. , but I just knew I'm like, this is where I need to be. It was like this intuitive hit. And while I was there, I got connected, , with, two professors that were at this mindfulness Institute. And I just asked them, like, do you ever collaborate with international PhD students?
They're like, you can come here. , for six months, we had just had a German student who was visiting like come in January. This was July. You know, the first thought in my mind was, Impossible, like impossible. This feels like so impossible, but inside I was screaming like, yes, it was like impossible, but like, oh my God, this sounds so amazing.
[00:11:35] Kelly: I started listening to that voice.
[00:11:38] Patty: Yeah. Cause there's, there's multiple voices going on, there's the voice of the mind. That's just like, can't possibly like, it just like can't happen. And then there's this other voice, which is your intuition speaking to you. And it's, it's excited. And you said that it, like, it feels so good.
And you, it's like a deep knowing, does it come to you as like a bodily sensation?
[00:11:58] Kelly: So I definitely have experienced anxiety before. So I know when anxiety is happening to me and I think what can be so difficult is sometimes I don't know, is it like an anxiety voice? Or is it an intuitive intuition voice? And how I've heard it explained is like intuition is, is like a gentle whisper, joyful, calm, like there's such a distinction.
And when I heard that, like that's so resonated for me. And so I think I experienced this or I experienced this opportunity. And this invitation, I was like, yes, like, it's like a calm, like you can't stop smiling kind of thing, you know?
[00:12:41] Erin: What's the difference between that and that anxiety and the, yes,
[00:12:48] Kelly: oh, it was so there. One of the myths, I think, or one of the things that is not talked about enough is like, when you start following your desires, like your heart's truest desires, The other voices, they become so loud, like the inner voices the noise.
[00:13:05] Patty: Ooh, that just gave me a little tingles.
[00:13:07] Kelly: Oh my goodness, I would have so like as the months went by and I'd set my decision on like I am going to figure out how I can move to Amsterdam in January.
I would have nights, I felt like I was a five year old having a tantrum, like I would be in my bed, it'd be dark, you know, I don't know, midnight or something, and I had so much restlessness. Coursing through my body and I felt like , I want this thing and I can't get it or I don't know how I'm going to get it like the anxiety and the uncertainty and the restlessness, it was so loud.
, but when I'm focused and I'm like, No, this is the thing that I want. It also has been all about like allowing myself to feel at discomfort and like ride it out. And be like, what is this here that is yelling so loudly? , so I think when I listen to my intuition, I'm also aware now of like other voices are gonna come up, stories, old beliefs that aren't serving me.
Other people's reflections of my decisions or their discomfort with my decisions,
[00:14:14] Erin: Yeah,
[00:14:14] Kelly: So I think I've been much more skilled with like, how do I cut through the noise?
[00:14:22] Erin: I love what you're saying, because I think there's also a myth that if it's the right decision, everything will fall into place and there will be no struggle. What you're describing is, is my experience too, that when you go towards what you really desire and maybe haven't fully committed yourself to because of the anxiety,
all the voices start coming in, all the people start calling all the. things start happening to make it harder. Right now, I'm looking for a home, for example, and it's taken so long to get through all the processes with the mortgage consultant, with looking at my accounts. Every time there's a step, there seems to be a misstep, and I keep reading it as Oh, I'm not supposed to do this.
But there's a whisper in my heart saying, I am supposed to do this.
Did that happen to you where you were like, maybe I shouldn't do this or did you just kind of keep pushing through?
[00:15:22] Kelly: Yeah, I definitely can relate to what you're saying. There was a lot of waiting for me that was happening. There was so much that was out of my control, right? Because to
move to Amsterdam. I had to break my lease with my San Francisco apartment, sell my car, get my dog, who's like a 60 pound dog. Like get him certified through the USDA process. So he could come on the airplane with me.
, how was I going to fund this getting fellowship set up, getting a visa? So there are all these like steps. Plus the biggest thing is I had to convince. My department and my advisor to allow me to go like this is not something that like a social work PhD does like maybe if you are like an archaeologist, you like go to do PhD, but yeah for me there was so much waiting, that was happening and things that had to fall in line.
For me what I hear with your story it's like. There's a resilience to stay focused on the thing that I want and allowing, I just had to trust them. Like things are just gonna, they have to work out. And when, when there was a misstep, it'd be like, okay, no, the resilience and the determination to push ahead.
The biggest test of that for me came after I'd actually moved to Amsterdam.
[00:16:38] Kelly: I was here 10 days getting settled in my apartment, into this research apprenticeship at the university of Amsterdam, and all of a sudden my advisor, who quite frankly had been so lovely to advocate for me, the department to allow me to be there.
She sends me an email about a fellowship. , because once you get into a PhD program, you have to be able to fund yourself at a certain stage and you have to be able to fund your dissertation. And she sent me a fellowship and she said, , you should apply for this. , I think they'll be really interested in your work on emotions.[00:17:11] Kelly: And it was for a fellowship on drug and alcohol recovery, something that like in my personal life I'd had experience with, but from like a scholar perspective, I never had thought about going down that route. And I saw that the fellowship was back in San Francisco.
And when I, , reached out to this fellowship coordinator and said, you know, I'm just moved to Amsterdam. , is it possible for me to participate in your weekly seminars as part of the fellowship? , can I participate remotely? This was 2019 right before COVID. She said, No, you need to be back here because we all get together like in the conference room for these lunch meetings.
And, I thought, there's no way like the universe would not do this to me. I was like,
[00:17:57] Patty: Silence.
[00:17:57] Kelly: that was kind of my response.
When you're telling me about these like, um, You know, these, these like one step forward one step back. I'm like, I'm like the universe would not offer me this lovely fellowship, this money to allow me to be independent, so that I could stay in Amsterdam, with this, you know, potential mentor, it would not offer me this while making me move so, but I, I did, I turned, I told this fellowship person, mentor, potential mentor, I said, listen, I'm going to stay here, but if something changes, please let me know. And she said, thank you so much for your honesty and transparency. I think my advisor thought I was nuts that I was turning on this potential opportunity that, that seemed quite frankly, kind of like a sure thing.
I mean, it's, you know, 30, 000 is a lot for a PhD student
[00:18:46] Erin: Right.
[00:18:48] Kelly: And a month later, this mentor emailed me and she said, we still are searching for applicants. We really want you to apply and you can stay in Amsterdam. And I, like, it makes me
[00:18:57] Patty: Like what?
[00:18:58] Kelly: tear up.
[00:18:59] Patty: Yeah.
[00:19:00] Kelly: unreal. And I think, you know, when these things are happening, like, I think there's a part of me that, , I know the other voices, right?
Like, I know what people say that, like, Kelly, this is so crazy. You're going to Amsterdam, you like, have this PhD, people don't do this. And also, like, people don't turn down these fellowship opportunities. And When I would tell people the story, like after the fact in academia, they were like, this is so nuts.
I can't believe this happened. I can't believe you got this fellowship. When I hear those people's reactions, it like furthers my fortitude and my strength in myself of this like inner voice and the inner knowing. Do you know what I mean?
[00:19:43] Patty: Yeah. It's like You were sure of what you were willing to do and what you wanted to do.
That kind of like internal certainty and clarity of yourself of like, this is where I need to be. . And you weren't sure about how it was all going to come together
There's a lot of power in saying, I don't know, which you've said before, like, that there's a lot of power in that. , can you share more about what happens when you tell people that you don't know?
[00:20:04] Kelly: Yeah, there's so many things, right? Like, as a, as a teacher at a university with bachelors and master students. I mean, I, I always try to talk about, like, it's okay to say, I don't know. And also I will say, like, I think there's definitely an inherent privilege to feel comfortable to say, I don't know the intersectionality of people's ideas and if they feel safe enough, quite frankly, to say, I don't know, because it it's very vulnerable to say, I don't know.
[00:20:33] Erin: Yeah. To Patty's point, you have some internal intuition on what's right for you, but you don't know the how.
And I think people when they ask like, what about this? Well, how's that going to work? They want to know the how. They want to know how it's going to happen because that's how it makes sense to them.
The desire alone is not enough. So I'm curious, saying you kind of don't know how this is going to work , how that has, even changed relationships with people or how they've reacted to that.
[00:21:07] Kelly: yeah, yeah, that's wild, right? I think one of the things that like so gets in our way from actually pursuing our greatest desires is that we don't know how other people are going to start to see us. , When we don't have everything figured out, right? Like, how are they, how are they going to respond?
Yeah, I got comfortable literally saying, I don't know, and recognizing that when people bombard me with their questions, so, so maybe they would say, , like, But what are you going to do with your dog? I'd be like, I'm going to break up
[00:21:46] Patty: He's coming with, of course.
[00:21:48] Kelly: Yeah, like as though that was something that like it, it felt like it was too much effort or too much work or something, right? Like, I think I started realizing that people's responses, they're often a reflection of their own stories and their own experiences and their own beliefs. About what they feel is possible for them or not. And I also started realizing, I think, sometimes people feel threatened. When I would say no to certain things, like, no, I don't want to just take out all loans.
Like I want to be able to support myself. I am worthy of a fellowship or something like that.
Right. People are like, but how will you support yourself? And sometimes it's like, I'm just going to start talking about it. And hopefully somehow something will come up. And indeed that is what happened.
So, I've had experiences in the alcohol and drug recovery community, specifically, like, 12 Stabs, Al Anon, um, and there are some lovely phrases.
that are part of that community that are so helpful. And one of them is just like, no is a full sentence.
[00:22:57] Erin: mm.
[00:22:59] Kelly: When people ask me these questions and I didn't have the answer for them, I would just say, I don't know. And I wouldn't explain myself further. Like, I can just say, I don't know.
And then it's cause it's always amazing. Have you, have you, have you had experiences where you feel like we have to like ad nauseum explain ourselves? It's so tiring.
[00:23:21] Patty: Yes, it is so exhausting and it's almost like all of this energy goes into building a case. And why, you know, why are, why are we building a case? What, who is it for? What is it for? And how can that energy be used in a different way of like actually doing, trying, improvising, putting it out there, making connections.
[00:23:42] Erin: Yeah.
Like you said, Kelly, it's like they can't envision beyond their limited beliefs. And I think that's just human. There's, you know, no right and wrong in that. Like if we haven't done something, we haven't done something before. Our mind doesn't necessarily have to be able to figure out all the steps to get there in order for that thing to become possible to do.
Like we just have to hold our desire for it.
[00:24:07] Erin: Like I think about how so much of our desires and even what you're talking about, there's like an element of magic to it.
And the more we try to explain it away, I think we lose a little bit of connection to the magic and that the fact that we're not in control and that there's something else holding us and let's not try to explain it and just be like, wow, look at this thing that just kind of got me here.
[00:24:28] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, that is so true. The over explanation, it becomes so logical that it does lose the magic, you know, I think that's true. I think the other thing I started noticing is when people would ask me these questions and I would say, I don't know. It was creating the possibility for them to also , live their life in some way of saying, I don't know.
And I guess the only reason I say that is because then people would, would come back to me and that they would tell me things like, it's such an inspiration, what you're doing, or it's so great that you're like going after this, but, sometimes we have these qualities that we don't even know that are inherent within us until people start reflecting them back to
us.
[00:25:13] Patty: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Kelly: You know, so I didn't know I'm like, oh, I didn't know this was like a strange thing to like just be pursuing this thing that I really wanted
[00:25:22] Erin: So weird of you.
[00:25:24] Patty: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Erin: You mentioned the fellowship in drug and alcohol, you know, rehabilitation, you mentioned having experiences in these communities. And I know we've talked about kind of personal history there. And maybe as this personal history being kind of a big before and after for you.
[00:25:42] Kelly: Yeah, I love I love that the idea of like that our lives can be created in these chapters of the before and after.
But it certainly is, is rung true for me. , Amsterdam was a before and after. And then certainly, yeah, when I was 25, it was very clear that my dad really needed to be in like a drug and alcohol recovery, program.
So he did enter, uh, recovery program when I was 25, but that was his second stint at, sobriety. And so when I was little, when I was five, it was also his first time and he'd done other programs, I mean, I, there are so many things that I could share about like the ways that our mental health system, particularly in the U S needs to be revamped and how we also frame drug and alcohol and the, just getting people to support that they need.
But at this time that this was happening with my family, it was clear there were lies that were being told, , you know, all the horrible things about addiction.
At this time I was so aware that I was living on autopilot.
And when I say autopilot, I literally mean numbing. Where, like, there's a hyper vigilance of something needs to happen, like, something needs to change in my family. Where you feel like you're approaching a precipice, that, like, this is no longer sustainable.
And so around this time, me and my mom and my brother, we like gathered my whole, my extended family together, and we'd really just told them about how we were experiencing things that were happening with my dad. Cause at this point he also was just. Not in a good way. So he wasn't communicating as much and we, , did an intervention.
Like gathering family members together in this loving, really assertive and direct way to tell your family member, like. We cannot all continue to go on like this. Like this is so devastating for the family and we see how much pain you're in and you need help and you include an interventionist who then takes the person to a facility like a rehab facility that the family's already agreed on kind of thing.
So my family, we hired someone to come and to do an intervention and we spent an entire day, just like thinking about how do you be so intention and how do you be deliberate to deliver this message to my dad of we love you. And like, this is it, like, you get help. Or like, we can't have a relationship with you.
We all had to come to that agreement together. I think there were nine of us at this interventions. My grandma, I think, was in her early 90s or late 80s at this point. And. Uncles, my mom. So my parents were divorced at this time. My dad's best friend's widow was there. it was really beautiful, but, it was a feeling of we can't continue this way.
And so that feeling is like action has to happen because I'm feeling so detached from myself and from my family members.
[00:28:42] Patty: It feels that this was a very important inflection point of noticing the autopilot, noticing the numbing, and listening also to this intuition, which perhaps sounded like something needs to change. And, you know, something needs to happen here.
Something needs to change
[00:29:02] Kelly: Yeah.
[00:29:03] Patty: the other part is such a beautiful reminder is that when you've pursued this intuitive sense, that something must change, you don't have the answers. It then became a collaboration. So it was like you were working with your family, your brothers, you were inspired by, um, storytelling that you were consuming and calling it in and like learning from it.
And then you asked for help. You and your family asked for help. And it wasn't just like a, you figure something out now you go execute it. It's like you figured out something that a need or a desire. And then a team kind of came together to make something happen.
[00:29:45] Kelly: Yeah. Oh, thank you for that reflection. I think that's so true. The way that we found this interventionist was my uncle spoke to his neighbor who had been sober and like knew about this intervention coach . And then he sent us an email with the person's name and we called them and then we spoke with like three different treatment centers to also choose the right one.
Kind of like how you shop for therapists, like shopping for a treatment center. What is going to be the best vibe? You know, what's the best fit seemingly? Cause my dad, certainly he was not in on this collaboration, right? Like it was actually like, we definitely deceived him. We had to deceive him to, to come to Chicago, to like meet with all of us.
He had to get on a plane under false pretenses. Um, yeah, I mean, the story is turned out beautifully. My dad and I have a wonderful relationship now. So much healing has happened in my family. And he is sober, but like, you know, you never know, right? There's so much uncertainty. Someone could drink tomorrow, right?
These are always daily choices, but, um, I think powerlessness for me is not a good look
[00:31:00] Patty: Mm. Yeah, tell us more
about
[00:31:03] Erin: Tell us more about that. We're just like at the edge of our
[00:31:06] Kelly: I think that's the meat of when I'm like listening to you, Patty, talk about like you ask for help and then these people come and you don't know what's going to happen. Like I don't do well feeling powerless. And so I'm like, what is the way that I can stop feeling this way?
[00:31:25] Erin: Hmm.
[00:31:25] Kelly: the only way that I know is to,
[00:31:28] Patty: Is to take action.
[00:31:29] Erin: Right.
[00:31:30] Kelly: yeah, and it's because they're talking about things.
[00:31:32] Erin: but You've also talked about the waiting and the discomfort that it isn't all in your control even though you do seem very, you know, like action oriented.
What do you do in the face of knowing that you don't have full control over everything?
[00:31:48] Kelly: I mean, it's so funny,
right? Because I think for like people who are so action oriented, like then have to be in the non action moments. It's so freaking uncomfortable.
I think I've had to get Yeah, really good with With like, maybe it's the patience. I think there is like a patience and a trust of it makes me think of exposure therapy, right?
So people who, for example, have anxiety about certain things like the idea is. We just have to live it like we have to live it and just see and expose ourselves to the thing that feel uncomfortable. Being exposed to the parts where I'm not actually taking action, and I'm in the sitting still.
[00:32:34] Patty: Wow. major perspective shift of the exposure. therapy for you is not like doing, doing, doing. It's sitting with the discomfort of the not doing.
[00:32:47] Kelly: Yeah.
[00:32:49] Erin: Wow.
[00:32:49] Kelly: The little so we like with my dad going to rehab.
I mean the thing too, right, that they talk about so much for family members and loved ones of those that are in recovery and that are trying to get sober , we also have to look at our own part in the dynamic with the relationship with my dad, right? So I had to think about what were the things that I was trying to control that were so out of my control?
So my dad going to rehab, like I no longer had control peeps, right?
I wasn't fixated on worrying about him, , or past times of like counting how many beer cans were in the recycle bin. All those things were no longer occupying my mind, right? And so, and he's in rehab , like that's for him to do.
Like that is his process, it no longer is about me, and we didn't know how it was going to turn out. I mean, it was, it's a beautiful story of the things that have happened because it was up to him. Like he really surrendered and at the age of 52, he decided he wanted to change, you
know? Thank God.
Like that was so healing for me to watch, but I think that's when I also had to start looking at my own patterns of when we put so much focus on other people's. Um, in our live then we actually, it's a distraction from ourselves, you know?
So then I had to start looking at like, what are the things that I need to go after? I think part of that also was sitting still with myself. Like that's what, it's hard, you know, when you're no longer taking action because I had to like really sit still. And be like, what do I wanna do next?
[00:34:25] Patty: Wow.
What a
question.
[00:34:27] Erin: Yeah, you have such an action oriented mindset, but you've, shared so many examples of things coming into your life, solutions presenting themselves that you never foresaw. And I'm curious when you look back if you can discern when is it the time to take action versus when is it the time to let yourself be held. Mm-hmm.
[00:35:06] Kelly: Hmm. Yeah. That's such a, yeah, that's a nice question.
[00:35:11] Patty: Such a good question.
[00:35:14] Kelly: I definitely have a belief that there are, there are just like things that are happening. So I definitely I wouldn't say that I'm religious, but
I would rather feel humble than that. Like there are things that I cannot know and cannot possibly think that I know everything or humans know everything. And I would, I believe that there is , a greater kindness or love that is, is like helping all of us. . Like when we choose to listen and to sit and to tap into like such love.
I think that understanding alone has helped me feel, I guess, safe in these times of not knowing or in these in between times like after I take action. I'm not sure how it's going to turn out.
I also think they're like the basic needs, that also helps. With just pure safety, like. You know, having a place that if I'm going to take a risk, if I'm going to move to Amsterdam and I no longer have an apartment for whatever reason, or this collaboration doesn't turn out.
The fact that I knew I could always go home to my mom's house in Florida or to my dad, or I have a twin brother, I could go live with him, you know, like it makes it actually, it really makes me teary eyed. It's such a grounding factor for all these places where I move, live, and It's, it's like also the people, you know, that I know that if something were ever to happen, I can go back.
So I think those basic needs and that safety, I think is also so important to talk about, you know. So yeah, that's also been really huge for me. Now I forget your question. I'm sorry.
[00:36:49] Erin: Oh, I
[00:36:49] Kelly: I
[00:36:50] Erin: you, you, you answered it.
[00:36:52] Kelly: was thinking about how much I love my family.
[00:36:53] Erin: It's so tender what you're sharing. You're saying in some ways, like, you don't know the difference, but you have this belief and you have this core set of needs met around love and safety.
And that is like a way to carry you on the waves of not knowing or knowing and like maybe every time it is just a bet we're making. Um, who knows if this was the time to take action or the time to wait to be held. But the fact that we're on this beautiful boat that is built from our family and our friends and our love means that even if the waves are not the waves that we should have kind of headed towards we'll be okay,
but how important it is that we actually have that support system and it's a privilege that not all of us have just acknowledge that. But, I'm just loving that image of, of, of the way to navigate these things.
It's, it's not that you're going to change the waves. It's that you have to have that support to navigate them.
[00:38:01] Kelly: Yeah, yes, and I think there's also the idea for me of like, in any given moment I can also choose differently, right? Like,
I could, like, sometimes I feel like we make these decisions and or at least for me that I felt the heaviness or the burden of decisions in the past and like, if I'm going to say yes, like, I will be your girlfriend, or like, yes, I will move here, right.
That then I'm like tethered by a promise that I have to show up and I have to try my hardest. Um, as opposed to like in any given moment, like I can decide that this relationship is not for me and that's okay. Or I can decide that like this, you know, Amsterdam or this research collaboration I thought was going to be all these things and it wasn't like it would be so fucking disappointing and devastating.
Of course. . But like, I can always change my mind. And I think sometimes we forget that. I think sometimes that's part of the fear. I don't know if that's ever happened to you, but we feel like, yeah,
[00:39:03] Patty: Yeah. No, I for sure. I mean, I, it's, it's speaking so much to me. I, um, I am so grateful for the relationship that I'm in right now with my partner. We very much have a. We choose each other every day and we have, we have the opportunity always to change our mind and that we know that we're growing. We know that we are always going to be growing and that we don't know the paths in which our desires will take us.
And, you know, there's, there's something really freeing about committing to yourself in that way . And like committing to truth and honesty and then choosing to share it with someone else. It grants this truer, like more open and expansive is. Experience. There's like so much lightness about it.
[00:39:50] Kelly: Yeah. Because it's so honest then, right? Like this is where I'm at and this is where you're at and like, oh my God, this is so amazing. We're at the same point. And like, what else can Create or like, actually this isn't, this one thing isn't feeling good. And like, thank you for so much for telling me that.
And how can I be supportive of you? Like, there's a whole trickle down effect, right? Like there are such beautiful things that also emerged from the repair. But we have to be so honest just to say the thing that, that we want to say.
And I think Patty, like how you explained it, so beautiful. Like , I'm not married and right now I'm single, but. That's exactly how I would think about it too, like today, for today, I choose this and I choose you, you know, and like how beautiful to every day deliberately make that choice, because I think there are there are certain things where I see where people like they're just going with.
The status quo of what, cause it feels like the path of least resistance. And that always has felt so heartbreaking to me.
[00:40:52] Patty: Yeah.
I'm, I'm so curious because it seems like we're, we're touching on this idea of a compass and you know, the things that keep us afloat or the support that keeps us afloat and not knowing quite where the, what the destination is, but having these sort of tools and guidelines and When you feel the warmth of an invitation of like, yes, okay, try that.
You didn't have a map. You didn't have a step by step process. Did you have a kind of future vision? Were you holding a vision of any kind or was it really an attunement like moment to moment?
[00:41:30] Kelly: You mean with like moving to Amsterdam?
[00:41:32] Patty: Yeah. Moving to Amsterdam and even, um, this sort of intentionality in which you live your life.
[00:41:39] Kelly: Yeah. I don't think I've always been this way. Like, I think there's a certain point where like, I woke up in my life, so to speak, or I started to feel like more alive
To question, like, why I was doing things.
Um, and so that then led me to when I started questioning why I was doing things and started getting clear about what were the things I wanted to be doing, like, even now, I mean, I've been here in Amsterdam almost five years and it feels so good. Like, this is the first time I don't have another place where I want to move.
Like, it also makes me so teary eyed, which is how it's so real. I feel so grounded, I think, in my, so to speak, compass, as you said, by literally like cultivating activities that allow me to check in with that compass.
And it's like a daily activity. Sometimes it's every couple hours, you know, um, literally of the like, how does this feel? Because what I've also realized is when something doesn't feel good for me, whether it's like, do I go on this second date, or this fourth date, or do I collaborate with such and such researcher, like, if it doesn't feel good, I know.
Like, I know my body, I get headaches, my neck gets tense, I start feeling heaviness and
burden, and my body lets me know. That's, yeah, for me.
[00:43:04] Erin: the compass connects to your Your work or what you've learned about self love, like what's the role of self love in this wayfinding journey?
[00:43:13] Kelly: Uh, that's a beautiful segue here. Actually, I was thinking, yeah, I have not always lived this way. So I'm 40 and I was raised in this, this, like, self esteem generation.
[00:43:26] Kelly: So if you would have asked me when I was like 22, if I had self esteem, I would have said, yes, like. You know, I, I had high self esteem. , I had friends, I was achieving things in my workplace. , I felt like I belonged somewhere.
I was making money. I could buy the things that I wanted to buy. I had high self esteem, but I didn't have self love
and the way that I distinguish those things is self esteem for me is like this external validation from these other sources, other than myself.
[00:44:06] Patty: Yeah.
[00:44:06] Kelly: It's like the pat on the back, you know, the accolades, the promotions, , people telling you that they're proud of you, that you're doing such a good job, you know?
So those things were happening, but I still found myself like searching or seeking or In relationships, romantic relationships that ultimately weren't fulfilling or whatnot.
But then I guess, three years, four years ago. I kept seeing all this self love talk, and I don't know if it's because, you know, I'm in the therapist community, so maybe I was following people who were talking about self love, but all of a sudden I started seeing, like, self love being expressed by, like, a Starbucks frappuccino on a warm day with your beach towel, you know, in these images.
And self love was just everywhere. . And I found it, quite frankly, so confusing. I was like, what is this self love? , what is self love ultimately mean? What does it actually look like in practice?
And I think as I was navigating this move to Amsterdam, and as I was navigating, like, how do I get through this PhD program to study something I'm genuinely curious about?
And then on a human level, I was, you know, I wasn't in a relationship and I was wondering, like, is there something wrong with me? Do I need to be fixed? What is this? Like, I'm also a therapist,
And so I think at this time, it led me to My dissertation about , how are people actually talking about self love on social media?
[00:45:41] Kelly: After analyzing almost 200, 000 posts, , these were hashtag self love posts, all public, all from 2019 on Twitter and Instagram.
I think I had like 15 research assistants at Berkeley and the University of Amsterdam, helping me.
The biggest thing that people were talking about was really cultivating this relationship with themselves, and this was so different about how this had previously been talked about in the literature, which was like self esteem or narcissism. So I think it gave voice to this thing that I was also feeling within myself.
I was noticing like, Oh, what does it actually mean to have a relationship with myself.
Um, and it was confronting. It's very
confronting.
[00:46:29] Patty: you.
[00:46:29] Kelly: It's very confronting to spend like three years doing a dissertation on self love because then you start realizing like, oh my gosh, I totally realized the places where I was betraying myself, where I wasn't speaking up. I wasn't using my voice I think the most confronting thing for me about self love is the idea that we are responsible. I am responsible for myself, right? And like, what is that? I mean, like, obviously, right, when you hear that, it's like, oh, yeah, duh. When you literally think about what does that mean, you drill down, like, it's the choices.
It's the things we say yes to,
[00:47:05] Erin: Mm hmm.
[00:47:08] Kelly: You know,
[00:47:09] Patty: It's so funny because I felt that very recently in this moment, I like had super long hair, got my hair chopped off. And I was so excited about it, I was like waiting for this stylist where I am now, but then I was going back to New York and , I was like, the stars are aligning.
It was a very high frenetic energy. Wasn't like a calm, Oh, this feels nice. And right. I go to get my haircut where I have a whole list of how I want to express myself . I've been holding onto this hair for like years and I'm like entering this new chapter of my life.
I asked like, you know, can we go, maybe like go a little short? I have these curls, like we don't know what they're going to do when they go shorter. And then if we want to take it shorter, like we can go from there. And she was like, Hmm, I don't, I don't want to do two cuts.
And like right there, my whole body reacted, but reacted in a trauma response of shutting down. Okay. Like you're the boss. I'm in this chair and I have no agency. That's it. Which actually isn't true. It isn't true at all. I could have totally been like, Oh yeah.
Okay. That doesn't work for me then. It was so nice to meet you. I'll pay like the cancellation fee. I'm out of here. But I didn't. I didn't. I didn't.
I didn't
[00:48:26] Kelly: I'm like, yes, because I'm like seeing this. I totally get it.
[00:48:30] Patty: Yeah, I didn't do that. My hair was washed and chopped within like 35 minutes. I was like, oh wow, this isn't what I asked for. It was like it came out and she was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm like, yeah, me too. And I was more like, sorry with myself because I felt all the things and I didn't trust. I chose to kind of betray myself in that moment and I really can't blame this person because she was super clear about what she was willing to do and not willing to do. And I didn't respond to that. I just kind of like went with it.
[00:49:04] Kelly: Yeah.
[00:49:07] Erin: I just, I very much relate to that. And I think there's something deep in me that has some, a little bit of juicy anger around so hard to be a woman because I think we are just trained in some ways culturally to accept our fate or to not push back or to not make other people uncomfortable.
And that's been for me, the hardest part about. , unlearning the self betrayal, is that I actually really am scared of, , abandonment, rejection, I'm scared of being punished. Like there's a deep part of me. And we talked about this a little bit in the last episode we did about like the good girl syndrome.
[00:49:52] Kelly: Beautiful episode.
[00:49:54] Erin: Yeah. And Thank you for
[00:49:58] Patty: Mm, Mm,
[00:50:00] Erin: that message. It's been reverberating. ,
but it Is something that, you know, that I've, I've talked with therapists about too, it's like, we have intrinsic goodness, there's nothing we have to do to be good, or to be likable, or to be whoever we think we need to be with any given person, like, it is already true. So, I'm just, I'm saying that out loud to say, don't be a good girl if being a good girl means you're not being yourself, right? You're already good. Hmm. Hmm.
[00:50:30] Kelly: Yeah, thank you both for just like sharing what you did. I definitely think there's this myth of like, all of a sudden I'm going to reach this self loving state and I'm going to be fixed and I'm going to be healed.
Right? Like clients come to me and they'll be like, I just want to feel healed, you know, or I think it's part of this like striving nature. Whatever. But what I realized is it's really, it's just about being in these kind of moments and seeing how do we show up. And for me, I think one of the things when I started going after my desires and also saying like, I don't know,
I. Really had to release so much of my perfectionism. I say that I am a recovering perfectionist and I had, I had a therapist once tell me like, Kelly, you can be messy. You can be like the messy person in the meeting who's like so, excitable and talking about these things and like, you don't have to know the statistics and you don't have to know, like, how to do a regression analysis right away.
Like, you're allowed to be messy and learn these things and, and I think part of this self love process for me. I actually had to be able to learn how to trust that I could express my feelings
[00:51:44] Patty: well, this idea of like, you're healed, go, you know, I have these tools , I feel like I've been meditating for a long time. And still, when I am speaking or expressing a truth that really wants. air, it doesn't feel great at first. Like my throat tightens and closes up, my heart starts racing and all I want, and I just like want to like keep it in.
But the moment that I start to express, there's a loosening. And it's also incredible to see how it's been received at this stage of my life. What then is invited to also open up and other people and be received is so exciting and like the most calming way I can say exciting like there's like a Like an exhale, but at first it feels Really uncomfortable and like almost like a small death or something not to be a really traumatic My body it's like
[00:52:44] Kelly: Well, that's a former of ourselves, right? Like former of ourselves. As we're evolving and allowing ourselves to evolve, you know,
[00:52:52] Erin: Yeah, I think that relates back to what you were sharing earlier, Kelly, about just the restlessness and the anxiety when those desires start coming up and you can't like, you don't want to push them down, but they're creating all this turbulence because something's being born in a way or dying both at the same time.
And we have to kind of just like. Like a doula or a midwife kind of be like just keep pushing scream it out it's gonna suck but you're gonna be so happy when it's over That's really hard to do. I mean what what supports you in doing that today Kelly?
[00:53:33] Kelly: um, it's so funny you said like a doula or a midwife because the reason that I actually came here to the University of Amsterdam to was to work on this mindfulness study. And there was a PhD student here, who was a midwife she sold her midwife. Midwifery practicing and, , started a PhD here at the University of Amsterdam, and I came to work with her.
And as you were talking, I was reminded if she always would talk about this beautiful metaphor of the contraction and expansion of life,
she would be compared it to birth and like that stays with me.
[00:54:09] Kelly: I feel like I'm just coming out of some hard moments of like, I moved apartments, I didn't know where I was going to move for like a whole month, I'm starting a new job, and sometimes it's, Imagining myself going through the birthing canal, I'm like, these are the contractions like this feels so freaking hard right now.
But like the expansion is coming, you know, it's like there is light at the end of the tunnel. So I think that helps me get through and then, I have just some beautiful friendships that are just like such Sounding boards, you know, and I think Patty, as you were talking before, , it made me think about like how I really see this idea of self love and this cultivating a relationship with myself.
[00:54:54] Kelly: Like it's allowed me to create such beautiful connection with others. Cause you know, like when you explain this relief, like it's a relief when you finally say the thing that you wanted to say, and it's a relief. And then when I would see how people would respond, like there is a practice of trust there, right?
It's like you dip my toe in and I'm going to say the thing that like may make someone feel uncomfortable. It may burden somebody else at whatever. And when I started giving people the opportunity to show up for me, like that was so beautiful to see. And I think you kind of were alluding to that in what you were sharing.
And of course there are people who it's also telling right. Where we're like, you're not my people. And that's also, okay. I'd rather rule you out and I'm not going to waste my energy. Cause I, I definitely can put my energy into things and I'm like, Oh, this, Oh, this is not right.
This doesn't feel good. But it's like the self love, the whole purpose is to like actually connect better with others, you know?
[00:56:01] Erin: Connecting with yourself to connect with others. And we've talked about this too. You have to give the voice to what it is that you desire, what you want, that where that self love can help support you in giving voice to it. And then once you give that voice, That your people will come in
and they will come to help you and connect with you.
And then some people will stay out on the shore and they're not going to come in for you and you got to let them be.
[00:56:28] Patty: Mmm.
[00:56:29] Kelly: Yeah. And it made me think of, do you all know that Brene Brown book, I think it's like braving the wilderness. Erin, you're nodding. Yeah. She has this metaphor about how , you walk through, the forest alone. And then all of a sudden you get to the clearing and you're like, Oh, there are my people like they were there.
You just had to, to say your things and be true to yourself kind of thing. I also think of that in turn with , the birthing canal. Um, I think those just really helped me,
[00:56:58] Patty: So good. And Kelly, you've talked about this relationship and dance between efforting and recalibrating and to me. It feels so similar to this contraction and the expansion and like what feels a lot like effort is things coming in part so that they can come back together in a new way that they haven't before.
[00:57:19] Kelly: Yeah.
For me, recalibration often looks like, and I think this is the tantrum. This is like the five year old in me who's like having the tantrum in the bed. It literally is the, this idea of letting go. And I say, Letting go in quotes, because I have such a, um, um, not a hostile relationship with this idea of letting go.
Cause ultimately it's surrender, right?
[00:57:46] Erin: Mm. Mm
Mm.
[00:57:47] Kelly: I'm like, it's so funny. We're talking about a podcast. I'm giving it in surrender. The action oriented me is like, go, go, go and do, do, do. But it frustrates the heck out of me how we in society talk about this idea of letting go. And so how I've recalibrated,
[00:58:06] Patty: hmm.
[00:58:07] Kelly: like, oh, it actually feels good and helpful for me is the idea of like, okay, I don't have to give up on my desire. All I have to say is like for this moment, this one moment right now. I am accepting that I do not have the thing that I want. And like, I don't know how it is that I'm going to get the thing that I want. , maybe it's not this person that I thought was going to be this beautiful relationship.
That's okay. Right. But like,, I still know that I want this thing and I don't want to betray myself, so to speak, you know? So I think that's how I frame letting go. And that's how I. Recalibrate to also open up to okay, well, it's not gonna be this person like it's gonna it's like this or something better.
[00:58:55] Erin: Hmm.
[00:58:56] Kelly: Like this or something better to me is such a grace for me as is more will be revealed like more friends joke with me about this phrase like more will be revealed because we don't have to know right.
When we take these leaps, like, we don't know how it's going to turn out, but to me, it's coming back to, like, the magic, as you were talking about, Erin, of, like, I don't know what's going to happen,
The more you revealed for me allows me to just come back to this moment to like let things be and accept it for what it is and then I can feel the feelings of like this is really devastating or this
is really disappointing. And then something recalibrates of like okay a whole new opportunity there's going to be a clearing, you know,
[00:59:40] Patty: Yeah, it's going to
[00:59:41] Kelly: so yeah
[00:59:43] Patty: If you could go back to this moment before you like, before you let go, you have now this wisdom of what you would tell yourself, that you don't know how you will get what you want, but what you are letting go of is this particular outcome, or maybe this expectation, but you're still holding on to and staying true to like that internal desire and knowing that that desire is worth it.
pursuing. How do you continue to fine tune that and find what works for you and like get into your body and do these things that connect you with that knowing?
[01:00:19] Kelly: First, before I, Even think about like a meditation or a practical step. Emotions make so much sense to me.
[01:00:28] Kelly: Emotions to me are data and they tell a story and they have come to make so much sense for me. So when I particularly, when I experienced envy or jealousy, it's like envy is typically like a materialistic good. And jealousy is like this fear of losing, like being afraid that we're going to lose somebody.
[01:00:51] Erin: mm
[01:00:51] Kelly: Like when I have envy or jealousy, they are such strong indicators for me of my desire.
[01:00:57] Erin: hmm. Mm
[01:01:00] Kelly: Like when I work with clients and I share that like, Jealousy and envy are some of my favorite emotions. People think I'm nuts,
[01:01:10] Erin: hmm.
[01:01:11] Kelly: but it's so indicative, right? Like when I see a beautiful relationship or I see like a mom, like snuggling her, her, you know, toddler, or when I see someone like playing with their dog in the park, or when I see people. I don't know, taking these trips to the countryside. I've been having these like fantasies for the past year about like going to the English countryside.
I don't even know what that looks like. But these, these like images that I'm seeing on Instagram and like these, I'm just imagining like drawing a bath and some amazing
breakfast, you know, walking through these like wild, this wild nature, you know what I mean?
Um, yeah, straight out of what's that book?
Um, Heathcliff and, um.
[01:01:57] Erin: Wuthering
Heights.
[01:01:58] Kelly: Exactly. Something like that, right? Like,
when I have these moments come up, emotions for me help me. , and then I think probably being being aware of my emotional state, I think, has come through.
[01:02:13] Kelly: Yeah, meditating, meditating. I think I started meditating probably like 10 years ago. After I'd had like a devastating what I would call like an apocalyptic breakup where I felt so devastated that I'm like something needs to change. And I found meditation and that sitting and start observing, like, how did I talk to myself? What were the things I was telling myself having those awareness of like, I think it's Michael Singer. He has this book called the untethered soul,
[01:02:47] Erin: hmm. Mm
[01:02:48] Kelly: the second chapter. He talks about how we have this roommate in our head and how we would never. allow a friend to talk to us the way that our roommate talks to us, like that stayed with me.
[01:02:59] Erin: Hmm. Mm hmm.
[01:03:00] Kelly: So cultivating like this awareness of what's happening in my body, what's happening in my mind, what's happening in my emotions, like those, I think are indicators for me when I don't feel good.
And when I ultimately like then need to take action, you know? So I think I've found a way somehow to like integrate this very Action driven, passionate person, and also like sitting in the stillness and sitting in the discomfort of like what is going to emerge right now.
[01:03:32] Erin: Yeah. Knowing what, you know, now, if you were to go back to that version of Kelly, you know, you shared your kind of numbing out or on autopilot that chapter of Kelly, what would you share with her?
[01:03:48] Kelly: Okay, peeps, I have to think about this. Like, what would I share with her? I always love like a good, like hand on heart, you know, just like, what would I tell her? Um, yeah, I think the part of the thing that I just keep hearing in my mind is like, keep going. Like keep going. Um, and I don't know why that's coming up.
[01:04:19] Kelly: I have been able to have this, like, affinity for, , holding people suffering. And also, oh, yeah, this is it because I'm starting to
[01:04:31] Patty: Hmm.
[01:04:34] Kelly: It's the keep going because I think, I have the ability to to really hold people suffering and to be with them when they're having a hard time. So, like, this is a beautiful profession that I found myself in. At that same time, I've so had to navigate, , Not taking on other people's shit,
And I think when you are a child in a family that has addiction, one of the coping mechanisms is , I would be able to read. All the things that were happening in the room. I know what people were thinking. I knew what, what things were not being said. I was so confused about why things weren't being said.
And so I learned to cope by understanding and reading emotions and understanding what are people's needs. And I started to actually understand, like, what are people's needs before they even tell me what they are. And that becomes a burden to be knowing in that way or to have the superpower, so to speak. And so all to say, when you said, what would I tell my, this like younger version of myself, it would be like, keep going.
[01:05:42] Kelly: Like keep going with your joy, keep going with like the things that are fun, like I
literally I have to be so deliberate about having fun and I'm crying again. so true.
[01:05:55] Patty: Yes, I'm like, my like, fists are in the air, because I'm just like you, like being deliberate about having fun, it's, for people who are naturally have fun, or who just like, wow, with life, it's like, doesn't make any sense, but I hear you.
[01:06:10] Kelly: Yes. And this is one thing that I'm envious of when I see people having so much fun I'm like, how are you having so much fun? Like, how do you do that? You know, like, that's amazing.
Um, that's where I need to like self source and be really like intentional about creating that.
[01:06:28] Patty: Mm beautiful.
[01:06:32] Kelly: Oh my gosh, please. The
hand on the heart.
Oh, it's, it's such an amazing tool for me. It's, it's life saving, life giving.
[01:06:42] Patty: Oh yes. Thank you for sharing that. I'll do like the hand on the heart, hand on the belly. Sometimes double. Like
let's
[01:06:49] Erin: The womb. The heart in the womb. Yeah.
[01:06:55] Patty: We have some fun, rapid fire questions for you.
So the first is the universe is calling you pick up. What is it saying to you? It's like bring, bring, bring Kelly.
[01:07:11] Kelly: Like, yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is like, I love you.
Like you,
[01:07:16] Patty: Hmm.
[01:07:18] Kelly: That means like so many things, right? Of like, I think it's just like inherent goodness, Erin, that you were talking about. Like, I have to believe that. Yeah.
[01:07:30] Erin: I love that. The idea you pick up the phone and they're like, Hey Kelly, I love you.
[01:07:37] Patty: Hey Kelly. Love you.
[01:07:40] Kelly: Oh, that's okay.
[01:07:42] Erin: Oh,
[01:07:43] Patty: good.
[01:07:44] Erin: next, next rapid fire question.
[01:07:46] Patty: What's one thing that you're are really excited to eat today or maybe tomorrow or sometime soon?
[01:07:55] Kelly: Um, you know what? I just moved to this neighborhood in Amsterdam and I, I've been like so busy settling in for the past month, I have not explored any of these restaurants and this is like an amazing restaurant and bar, um, neighborhood. And so a friend is coming to meet me in like two hours and we're going to go out for dinner.
And there's a Moroccan place downstairs and Ethiopian place next door. Like, I don't know. One of those, we're going to do one of those places. And so I think it feels beautiful just to like sit with a friend and explore a new place.
Yeah.
[01:08:26] Patty: be so
[01:08:27] Erin: isn't that the most perfect desire? The desire for really good food.
[01:08:32] Kelly: And conversation, you
[01:08:33] Patty: Nourishment of all kinds.
Yeah.
[01:08:36] Erin: hmm.
[01:08:37] Kelly: Oh, I love nourishment. I love this word so much.
[01:08:39] Patty: Yeah, it's like the watering is something that you want to see grow.
[01:08:43] Erin: Right.
[01:08:44] Patty: I love that.
[01:08:45] Erin: Well, it's been such a pleasure, Kelly.
[01:08:48] Kelly: Aaron and Patty, thank you. I just I love what you're doing here. I think we need to talk about this stuff so much more of like, I think the giving in this is the messiness, you know,
what is like the giving and look like we don't talk about that enough, you know, it feels so elusive stories so powerful.
[01:09:09] Patty: We need them. We need each other. We need to know the truth of it. Like the polished wrinkle free version doesn't help us in our humanness. You know,
[01:09:17] Kelly: yeah. Thank you for this beautiful forum.
[01:09:21] Patty: you so, so much. Thank you for taking the time.
[01:09:25] Kelly: You're so welcome. Thank you both.
[01:09:28] Patty: Thank you for listening. If you loved it and wanna help us do more of these episodes, please follow and rate giving in on your podcast platform of choice.
[01:09:36] Erin: and sign up for our sub stack. We have a newsletter that comes out the day of each new episode released with highlights and more at givingin.substack.com.
[01:09:44] Patty: You can also email us at givingin@substack.com giving in is produced and hosted by me, Patty Carnevale.
[01:09:51] Erin: and by me Erin Ozmat. Logo and cover art is designed by Kira Weiss. Original music is by Leslie Alison and sound editing is by me, Aaron Asmat
[01:10:01] Patty: until next time.