We delve into the mysterious world of dreams with Kristen Oberly, an artist and dream analyst inspired by over a decade of studying Jungian psychology and the Enneagram. Kristen guides us through the creative power of dreams, exploring how they invite us to uncover hidden realms within ourselves and see past the limitations of our personalities. We discuss themes like working with dreams as a creative practice, instinctual anger, and the archetypes that emerge from the subconscious. Erin and Patty also share their recent dreams with Kristen, and she helps them unpack their hidden meanings and reach deeper insights. *Original music by Leslie Allison *Sound editing by Erin Ozmat *Logo and cover art by Kira Weiss, photography by Kendall Tichner *Produced by Patty Carnevale and Erin Ozmat *All rights reserved in podcast content and the Giving In™ trademark
We delve into the mysterious world of dreams with Kristen Oberly, an artist and dream analyst inspired by over a decade of studying Jungian psychology and the Enneagram. Kristen guides us through the creative power of dreams, exploring how they invite us to uncover hidden realms within ourselves and see past the limitations of our personalities. We discuss themes like working with dreams as a creative practice, instinctual anger, and the archetypes that emerge from the subconscious. Erin and Patty also share their recent dreams with Kristen, and she helps them unpack their hidden meanings and reach deeper insights.
Some linkable treats from the episode:
Subscribe to our newsletter with episode highlights and more at givingin.substack.com.
Have feedback? Leave us a rating or review on your podcast platform of choice, or email us at givingin@substack.com.
Episode credits:
[00:00:00] Kristen: So your relationship with your mother, with your parents, with whoever raised you, with the institutions that raised you, everything that Little you from ages 0 till 12 are even beyond even now, these things are unconsciously working on you as well and unconsciously putting these kinds of standards or ideals in you and that's like the thing that the personality is automatically Moving with is this standard set of ideals or the standard sets of morals or obligations and working with these things helps us kind of like realize what's us and what isn't and what never has been.
[00:00:50] Patty: Welcome back to Giving In. I'm Patty Carnevale and joining me is my co host and friend Erin Ozmat.
[00:00:55] Erin: In each episode, Patty and I have intimate conversations with guests who have experienced profound moments of surrender. Today on the podcast, Kristen Oberly is joining us. She is an artist and a dream analyst whose study of Jungian psychology has inspired her for over 10 years.
She works one on one with clients to interpret dreams and help them apply the lessons of the unconscious to renew their lives. She also teaches courses with the Enneagram School and co- hosts a podcast called Sinsomnia, where she and her creative partners Kaisa and Sammy discuss the Enneagram, dreams, mythology, fairy tales, Jungian psychology, art and beauty, personal stories, and much
[00:01:37] Patty: more.
Kristin and I met in a yearlong breathwork and consciousness raising course in Baltimore last year, and I was immediately struck by her wisdom and passion with all things about the Enneagram and dreams, and she also really made me laugh and feel curious about learning more about the mysteries of the human psyche, our individual expressions, and our interconnectedness.
We're so excited to have you here today, Kristen. Welcome!
[00:01:58] Kristen: I'm excited to be here!
[00:02:01] Erin: It's so cool hearing how you guys met. What are the things that you do, Kristen, that you feel really are alive for you? When somebody says, Kristen, who are you? What do you say?
[00:02:13] Kristen: Okay, let's see. Wow. I'm an artist, I guess, is like the main thing.
And I feel like that's, that's an umbrella of, you know, many things underneath artist, because I create lots of different kinds of art. And yeah, I work with dreams. And I have for quite a while. I've been recording my dreams since I was, you know, 12, I think, is like the, the age I've got stamped somewhere.
That's amazing. Yeah, I never really knew why, but now that like my life's kind of, you know, making sense. I guess. Oh, personality stuff, Enneagram, Patty mentioned that like, I'm, I'm super hardcore into that. I teach and also just kind of synthesize both of these things, the Enneagram and dreams. So like, understanding personality and how that shows up in the unconscious and the unconscious.
all of that sort of fun mishmash of images and symbols and what that means to us personally and where it's taking us and what it's saying about the past. It's always been on my mind. It's always been things I've engaged with. It's always been things I've created around, whether it be painting or writing or something like that.
So yeah, that just basically takes up my entire.
[00:03:52] Patty: I'm going to, I'm going to take like a crack at explaining what the Enneagram is in case anyone doesn't know. And then, um, maybe you can do it better.
[00:04:04] Kristen: Sure. That sounds great.
[00:04:06] Patty: Okay. There are nine types on the Enneagram and each person's personality. represents as a type. Although we all have within each of us, the essences of all nine points through, you know, our conditioning or some things that happened to us at a young age, whatever, our personality starts to develop into, you know, A particular type and there can be wings to those types like numbers that are on on the sides.
There are also three different instincts, sexual self-preservation, and I know it, social. Which is hilarious because I'm also a social dominant, uh, that are kind of in a stacked order of where our personality places a certain emphasis and where we place like a medium emphasis and then where we're kind of blind.
And then there's other parts that I don't even know really, like there's like all these other areas of the Enneagram, but that is my very surface level understanding of the Enneagram.
[00:05:15] Kristen: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's a good, that was a good, um, explanation. I think what too, I would add just like what has even helped me realize with synthesizing dreams and unconscious material, like each type and each instinct is going to continue to do and continue to communicate through their personality, which is what you're doing all the time.
If that's what your personality is doing kind of all the time, then. What you're dreaming at night is kind of like the opposite, the flip side. And then you have this huge well of unconscious energy that is behind all of those personality traits. The things that are sort of trapped beneath the surface, which is what I'm always drawn to.
Your unconscious is where a lot of things can be trapped but like when you're working with it and you're aware of it and that's where awareness and presence and stuff like that comes in it can be a huge creative potential. The personality is just constantly doing its thing and it's like not always as useful or helpful, like it just, it just fulfills cycles and it's like not actually what I, what I want out of life and so admitting that the personality is only so much of me, this little part of me, and there's actually, there's so much more to me that I can start to develop a relationship with, slowly of course, because it's hard, but like, yeah, there's, that's kind of the, the, the dynamic then, your personality is just automatic, always, always running, always getting you into trouble, always, you know, keeping you safe, keeping you comfortable, giving you the outcomes that you think, you know, are going to happen.
And then here's this other side that's just like, I don't know, what is it? You know, it's something else.
[00:07:15] Erin: There's so much nuance in that and complexity and for you to figure that out. Thinking about how do you even get to that point in your life where you're like, yes, there's this personality piece and this dark, but also creative place that we're all in when we're asleep.
Uh huh. What was going on in your life when you started to make these connections for yourself?
[00:07:38] Kristen: I've definitely, like I said, been drawn to this sort of thing for a while. Like I have been reading tarot cards for years, which definitely could be. Also, similar, they show hidden things. And also, like, yeah, the mental health world I was into for a while, and being a creative person I would try to understand mental illnesses and my own experiences through creative mediums.
Like, anytime something would happen in my life, it's like, I want to understand what's underneath it, you know? Like, there has to be some kind of reason, or there has to be Something I I take from this that kind of transforms me like I, I, I never kind of, um, went through things without really stepping back and questioning like what it was that I just went through or like, you know, that kind of thing.
It took me a while, but I realized that I was a nine and for anyone that knows that, one of the things too is that like nines are often depicted as conflict avoidant and they just want peace. And so I, I never. Related to that because it's like, well, I, I will purposefully cause, um, arguments and stuff like that.
I am pushy and whatever. Like, so it's not me. It's not me. And in a pivotal moment in my life, I. got into the Big Hormone Enneagram podcast, which I can like shout out if people want to check them out and their stuff. Listening to their stuff and listening to the ideas of attachment and attachment types, which is what a nine is, nine sixes and threes are.
It made me realize like, oh my gosh, I, I am that. I am an attachment type. I had this huge realization of like, am I even doing anything in life that I want to be doing. Mm-hmm. Attachment types. It's a very basic explanation, but like you're kind of constantly in consideration of other people and even if you're pushy, even if you're, you know, whatever, one, once you realize what isn't an attachment type and that, that they're not doing that, it's like, oh my God, that's what I'm doing all the time.
from there.
[00:10:00] Kristen: Everything just flipped upside down because I, I just decided, wait, I can like have agency here. I can have autonomy here, which is huge for nines. Nines need autonomy, which is where the pushiness comes in. It's just like I'm going to be pushy or I'm or I'm freaking out all the time because I'm weighing what autonomy I have and what I don't.
That's when I just kind of realized where I was and it in life and it's not where I really wanted to be I was with someone for three and a half years and I ended that relationship because yeah, I realized like we I don't want kids. I don't want Want marriage and this person does so split ways. And then that's when I decided to take the classes where I met Patty.
I'm like, Oh, wait, now that I made that major decision, I can do what I want. And like, I want to go take these classes that I heard of once and, and have fun there and see what that's about and had no clue what it would be about and showed up. And that was fun. When things started getting, like, really, really tough, I was having, like, major dreams, and that's also when I started wondering Why are these symbols so powerful to me right now?
It has to mean something, and that's when Jung came into the picture and reading More of not just Jung himself, but also all of the Jungians that write stuff that add on to this kind of world of symbols and the unconscious. And yeah, that's everything kind of in that one. And, uh, I, now I'm here and I like, it's such a, it's such a stark difference, I think, like my life before this, like, obviously there's, you know.
Uh, lots of things in between, or like things I carry over and that I keep with me, like creativity and this attracted to hiddenness kind of thing that we're talking about. But yeah, definitely like that moment was a major awakening of like, Oh my gosh, what am I doing and who am I?
[00:12:14] Erin: That's incredible.
[00:12:16] Patty: Yeah, I would love to hear more.
And if there's a specific dream that was really influential to you during that time. Yes.
[00:12:24] Kristen: Yeah. I've had many pretty big dreams that have meant a lot to me, but specifically in that timeframe, I think it was, you know, when I decided that I didn't want to have children is when I had the dream that woke me up to dreams in general.
Like it was the one where I started being like, Whoa, what did I feel like this might be commenting on something that's happening in life right now. It started off with, I was at this shrine that I just made apparently and I didn't know who it was for or what it was for, but I knew it was my creations and I walked away from it because there are these two scientists or doctors.
That were. leading me somewhere. And so, you know, they had clipboards. I have no idea what they actually were. But, so I walked away from that. And as I'm walking away, I turn around and I see kids playing with the shrine that I, I just walked away from. And I think to myself, like, Oh, it's just kids. Like, you know, typically I would be like, Oh my God, don't touch my stuff.
But they, you know, I was like, Oh, it's okay. That's fine. And I just walk with them. And we go through this labyrinth of Sort of like it felt very like a fairy tale. You know, there's this one thing that the the characters have to deal with and then there's this thing. It was kind of like that. Like I run into my sister and I have a conversation with her.
And then, you know, we we walk a bit more. And once we get there, they stopped me in front of this enormous mess. White tree and I'm looking up at it and it's huge like obviously not of this world Like white as white kind of tree and they tell me that it is the oldest tree in the universe
And
[00:14:23] Kristen: I am amazed by this and then they tell me that we're about to go see my mother because she is giving birth And I look over to the hill and because they're pointing over towards the hill and they say, you know, that's where we're going next, but the dream ends there, me looking at this tree because I, I don't like in the dream.
I didn't want to go yet. They kind of let me stay and be in front of this tree. So. It was pretty intense waking up and remembering it. For a while there, I wasn't having as consistent dreams.
[00:15:00] Kristen: And I wasn't really paying attention to them. Like I'd write them down when I'd remember them, but I didn't really care.
I guess or or question it as much like I did care, but I just didn't really engage with it back. I didn't know you could,
but
[00:15:14] Kristen: once once I had that dream, I think it was like a day or two after I made that decision and had that conversation with my ex-partner every day since then. I've been dreaming because that's when I was like, something's going on here and this means something.
And then, you know, had my friend say, Oh, well here you can, you know, read up on this guy. He does work with dreams. Oh, okay. Mr. Carl Jung. Sure. I'll tap into that. And then, oh my God, it's been like my, my life. Ever since every day I’ve you know I’ve read so many books now already like that's kind of just where my passion is and continues and will continue to be you know it
[00:16:01] Erin: sounds like you opened up a channel somehow, if I understand correctly you had this moment with an enneagram understanding of attachment and realize that you don't want the same things. As your partner and. I just can imagine so many people getting to that point and not doing anything about it, but you actually did something about it. Like you told your partner about it and you ended your relationship or got on a path to ending.
And then these dreams started and you started engaging with them. And that really sounds like you opened a door that was always there.
[00:16:41] Kristen: Yeah.
[00:16:43] Erin: But now it's fully with you in your life.
[00:16:46] Kristen: Yes, I think so. And I think, too, it's really felt like a source of healing that I didn't have previously. There's a lot of stuff that happened in my life up until then that was hard, like really hard.
I could feel the potential of healing that it provided, that I don't think I could get from anywhere else or anyone else. I didn't even know I needed it. I think that's why I, I followed it because something in me knew. This is important and this is going to be important to you. I absolutely couldn't say no to any of that, like, I had to move, I think is what I'm trying to say is like, oh, wow, now I got to move, you know, once I felt that.
[00:17:45] Erin: And you mentioned you've been writing down your dreams for a long time. So what changed with this dream? And your creative process, did you write this one down and then do more with it than you would have typically done or this
[00:17:58] Kristen: dream, I think, paired with personality. It's like knowing what the personality is is kind of, uh, it's it's like a trick.
I don't know, like your personality, how to explain it. It, it's so automatic. You don't think anything's wrong when there's like a bajillion things or something. Um, and so kind of realizing that and then starting to see how dreams were like paired really well in, in helping break the, the personalities patterns and to kind of understand the personality.
Once I had that dream. It was every single day I was having dreams. I had dreams every day for like a year straight, you know, even now I only go maybe tops three days without dreaming and it's a constant effort to be in conversation and dialogue and understanding that dream is what drew me to having that dialogue because, okay, my mother's in this dream.
I never dream of my mother. So there's something there that yeah. Obviously, then me making the decision not to have kids and not myself be a mother, you know, it started linking up and then ever since then, there's more to me and there's more about me and there's more about life in general and and how I relate to it and how it relates to me that is a never ending supply of information and creativity.
So it's just every day I'm in dialogue with that, you know. Something that's coming
[00:19:34] Patty: up for me, I had a really, really big dream. Probably my, one of my biggest dreams years ago, my mom in like the couple of years previous had had a psychotic break and we like, you know, rallied around her and she's since recovered so beautifully.
But at that time it was kind of like survival, just surviving and getting through and, you know, working my job in New York and like all these things. And grief never crossed my mind. Like it just didn't cross my mind at all. And I had this big dream where my mom was with me and she asked me, how much longer do I have to stay here with you?
And from that in the dream, I just like howled, like let loose, like an infant screaming, crying, just the most unimaginable. Sadness and I woke up and it was still with me completely. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I am so sad. I'm I am wrecked. Actually. I miss my mom and it's not a straightforward grief. You know, it's, it's a complicated, ambiguous grief because, you know, she, she was working things out and she's still here, but she's, she was different than the mom who, who raised me.
And. I had to, like, call out of work. I had to, like, really take time to be with the grief that rose up, and I wouldn't have even known that it was there in my waking life without that dream kind of, like, breaking it open for me.
[00:21:05] Kristen: Yep. I can relate to that a lot, because I think that's a massive part of what has happened.
Like, why I even wanted to bring up the aspect of healing, because it's, like, I didn't even know I needed that. I didn't know that was an option. And then to have dream after dream, it's like revisiting things that I didn't allow myself to experience at the time that I was experiencing it. So the, the grief or the fear or the confusion, like all these kinds of like, Emotions needing to be processed that were really just shoved down for like way too long.
It's like weird how that works. It's
[00:21:49] Patty: very weird. It's like when it was there, once I realized it was there, I was like, oh my gosh, of course this is here. Yeah. Like, and of course this is here and not acknowledging it. I mean, I think what in acknowledging it and being with the pain of it. The beautiful thing that happened is that it opened up more space for me to accept the reality, the new reality that we were in, where before it was kind of just a You know, getting by, getting through, just figuring things out and not really being present with, you know, the person in front of me.
Yeah.
[00:22:28] Erin: Isn't it kind of incredible that there's this hidden side that wants to create space for that or sees a need for that?
[00:22:39] Patty: Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And maybe sees the appropriate timing for that. It's like, okay, now's the time. I think so. Yeah.
[00:22:48] Erin: Yeah. Mm hmm. I'm curious, Kristen, like, is there anything you're working with right now that's showing up in your dreams that you would feel comfortable telling us about?
[00:23:01] Kristen: Oh, God. I have a list. Um, yeah, what is coming up right now? Um, I guess it is hard to put it into words. I can kind of only describe it as heartbreak, but it's not really for situations outside of myself. It feels like heartbreak for parts of myself that are, are kind of moving. I feel like there's the way that I have been seeing myself, like I'm, I'm actually quite a very serious person, surprisingly.
Because I make a lot of jokes when I get into a social setting, but like, I can be very serious and hard on myself. Even dream stuff, like I take it very seriously. Oh, what does that mean? Blah, blah, blah. So, it feels like there's one way that I've been doing that. And it's, it's almost too much pushing and too much feeling responsible and too much.
Trying to, to be attached to an outcome. I'm shifting into sort of letting that go, like letting a lot of that go and allowing parts of myself that are softer and parts of myself that are willing to admit defeat or willing to not know anything, like all this, which is very fitting for your podcast. And so dreams are kind of showing me that right now when I am sitting with them more.
I feel like I have a pretty strong relationship with them where I, I wake up and my automatic reaction isn't like, Oh my God, what does that mean? But it's more just like, okay, let's, let's sit with this throughout the day. And see what comes up. And I noticed when I do that, it's just like, I hardly even care what, what a dream could possibly mean, you know, or what it says about me or what I need to start teaching people about this, you know, thing I just realized.
It's more like, oh, there's, there's a lot to me that still, like, can be listened to that I have forgotten about. And I'm, I'm putting so much of my attention on the external and what's happening out there that I'm really losing grasp on, on a center. So I think that's a broad way of explaining. That's like what I'm journaling a lot about and then what Dreams kind of seemed to be commenting on.
[00:25:38] Erin: Yeah, the process, right? But it doesn't seem like it's a linear process. And when we had talked to you initially about your process, we were kind of curious, how might you guide someone who's had a powerful dream and doesn't know what to do with it, maybe, or is really interested in discovering through it.
But knowing that it's maybe not like, uh, okay, that's what you drum, so this is what it means. And here's what you can do. And yeah, here's a little bow on it and it's perfect. Right, right. Yeah. I know when Patty and I checked in earlier, we're like, you've been writing your dreams down, right? Like, yeah. We've been prepared.
So this would be a gift, of course, if you were to give it, but I'm curious if you'd Interested in either one of us sharing something and you sharing how you might approach it. Yes.
[00:26:34] Kristen: I would love to.
[00:26:37] Erin: Patty, I'm curious. Is there something that you've had recently come up?
[00:26:43] Patty: There's a, there's something that happens in some of my dreams and every time it happens, I'm like, yes, this is the best.
I, I have this ability to Jump and swing and like use the power of my body to say there's like a spiral staircase, which is what happened in my dream this week. Uh, and I'm making my way like up and down for different reasons. I can like leap and steer myself and like, Jump and kind of like Spider Man, but without the webbing, like all of the powers within me and I just feel so confident in my ability to swing around, uh, and get where I need to go.
And I would say that the feeling of like confidence and power in my body. Is not a typical dream theme, but this thing does happen from time to time and I'm, I relish it every time it happens in the dream. I'm like, oh, hell yeah, here we go again and it's totally like second nature every time in whatever the dream is.
Maybe I'm jumping really high. Like, landing is a big part of it. Like, I know I'm going to, like, land just fine. There's absolutely no fear. And I use whatever surface I'm around to just swing. It feels great.
[00:28:01] Kristen: Ooh, I love
[00:28:02] Patty: that.
[00:28:03] Kristen: Yeah. It's so fun. Do you mind me asking probing questions?
[00:28:11] Patty: Go ahead. Ask some probing questions.
I have my, I have my, my dream, so I'm going to have to refer back to it to get you, to get you accurate answers.
[00:28:19] Kristen: It is, it is definitely, like, you know, depending on the rest of the context of the thing, but I would even just, I mean, that specifically, like, I would want to know where In, in waking life, is that a type of connection to your body and your movements that happens or doesn't happen?
[00:28:42] Patty: I would say it does not happen. Like, I don't think that, I think that the closest I've ever felt to that, like, swinging sensation, let me sit with that, is when I've written certain poems. Um. I felt that sort of like, Oh, I don't know where this is going, but I'm, I'm with it and I'm moving and, and it's going to land.
And it's rare. It's certainly not, not all the time. When else do I have, I felt that swinging sensation. In my life, one volleyball game in high school, and I've played lots of volleyball games, but in one single game, did I ever feel that way where I was like, I'm crushing it and I'm going to continue to crush my body is so powerful.
Yeah, that's the only anything else. Anything else coming up here body wise?
[00:29:39] Kristen: Yeah. Well, I mean, those are two really great examples, because especially, like, if those things don't happen often, one of the many different kinds of functions of, of dreams, depending on who you're reading and who you're interested in and whatever, um, it's compensatory.
Like, most dreams provide some kind of healing that is lacking in waking life, some kind of symbol, some kind of situation, some kind of thing that. That waking life isn't providing that's that's like, you know, the opposite function, you know, the unconscious. So it's, it's In that sense, it's like, cool, because that's happening, like, it's fulfilling that for you during your, during your sleep, and you're getting that kind of restoration of sleep, but, you know, there's multiple ways you could look at it, and that's one way, and then another way is, maybe I, like, would want that more in my life then, like, Oh, yeah, I definitely would want that more in my life.
[00:30:40] Kristen: Well, what's stopping you?
[00:30:42] Patty: Yeah. I don't know, like, I don't know how to access it in my, in my everyday life. And maybe that's okay. It's okay that I don't know how, if I know that I have a longing there for it.
[00:30:55] Kristen: Right. Exactly. It's the chase then for that. It's like, then how do you, how do you chase that? How do you, how do you actually go for it?
And that's what I love too about dreams is that sometimes it gives you. Things in that way that it's like, Oh, I, I want this thing and that that is a part of me that I want to nurture and a part of me that I want to grow and develop more. So it's just like, if that's something that you're connected to in creativity or you're connected to in some kind of physical body activity, and that's not happening as much in waking life, then it's like that can absolutely become a part of your life if you, if you go for it.
[00:31:52] Erin: I had a dream this week, too, and it's, I'm very curious about it because there's one part of it that keeps playing over in my head over and over and over again, that it seems like my mind is trying to figure out or put words to or understand and this dream. Was very vivid and had lots of scenes. I'm curious, almost as part of the process, Kristen, when somebody comes to you and they've had this like epic Netflix series of a dream where there's like really multiple episodes, like, where do you start?
[00:32:30] Erin: Is it the beginning always or do you try to draw them to where they feel the most alive or?
[00:32:36] Kristen: Mm hmm. I think that's where a bit of my own intuition sort of plays because usually, yeah, I will have people kind of go through the saga of situations and the beginning is definitely important because it sets the stage like here is where we are and it's setting the stage for the rest of.
The saga to unfold, but usually I will ask what felt most profound to you or like what kind of like what you're saying, like, what is your mind playing with more out of that whole thing? And I kind of have my own one that I'm drawn to, like there's a specific, Oh, interesting. That's like where, where my intuition is like, that feels important.
Like that feels like something's in there. Um, and sometimes too, like. The dreamer doesn't even recognize how important it could be and that's so that's where it really comes in as interesting. Yeah, because it starts to sort of hit on feeling tones that maybe the person in waking life doesn't easily access or doesn't easily pay attention to.
[00:33:49] Erin: Interesting. Well, if you're open to me sharing in the most abbreviated version, so I don't keep you all here for three hours about my dream. Perfect. So it was clear that I was in a very bougie type of Victorian, but updated apartment in Paris or New York, it had this quality of class and someone who doesn't care a lot about about money, but has money created this beautiful space.
[00:34:26] Erin: And within moments of being in the space, it's kind of turned into what only I could describe and feel embarrassed describing is an orgy. Like there's lots of like fancy people, like as if. You know, Gossip Girl meets Emily in Paris is happening, and there's all these very sophisticated, sexy people around, and I'm invited to stay, but I very much do not feel comfortable staying in this space, and somehow I'm worried Um, not really given permission, but give myself permission at the same time to stay.
And again, more embarrassment. Dreams are so funny in this way where it's like, this didn't really happen. But even describing something that didn't happen is like embarrassing. So vulnerable, but so great. It's so vulnerable and great. I have this very sexy experience in the dream of my socks getting removed very slowly.
My socks are just getting removed. And I look around and there's like a man in his underwear, in the apartment space. looking at a jar of raisins and saying, saying to the hostess, which I can't even see, could I have some raisins as a snack? And there's not really an answer, but he goes for the raisins and they turn into insects.
Wow. And I transform at this moment into a apartment that feels like it's the same apartment, but it's been extended and it's gotten kind of dark and mysterious. And it's clear that I'm the hostess at this point, and somehow I'm living with my mother in this apartment. So this transition is like very intense, and I'm like, what is going on?
Suddenly a door forms in the apartment where I can't go into that room, but she goes into the room. The mother figure goes into the room, and it's clear she has like a suitor or somebody in that room. And she comes out and she tells me he's leaving soon. Don't worry. And I feel like something kind of went on that I shouldn't know about.
And this is the part that I can't stop thinking about is the door suddenly kind of like a telescope starts telescoping out into another door that is leading to the outside. So it almost looks like an accordion, like old timey camera accordion, or a telescope. And it creates this passageway from the door in the apartment to the outside.
And I sense him, whoever was in that room, going through and leaving, but I can't see them. Like, I know that they're leaving, but they're like completely hidden from me. Wow. And just this image of the accordion, like the kind of door shooting out that way. I keep playing it in my mind because it's so strange.
Yeah. And like, I want to touch it and feel it. And it keeps changing in my mind from the telescope kind of to that camera, like pulling out to an accordion. And that's, that's where it ended. Wow. So there's a lot there. There's a lot there.
[00:37:50] Patty: I have questions about the socks.Were the, like, What was the sock? Was it like a plain white sock? Was it like a fancy sock?
[00:38:06] Erin: Think of like a hiking Merrell, like up to your knees. Fantastic. Like a wool sock. It was like an outdoor sock. It was not a sexy sock. It was just a long wool up to my knees kind of sock that I didn't have.
[00:38:21] Patty: It was like a lumberjack sock.
[00:38:21] Erin: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:26] Kristen: Okay, um, with that end there, when you're playing it out in your head, do you feel curious about where it goes to, or curious about the mechanisms, like what makes it so intriguing to you? I want to know why that's happening, where it came from, where it's going, how it was made, like which one are you drawn to?
[00:38:49] Erin: It's almost like it feels dangerous.
[00:38:53] Erin: Because of this figure that I never got to meet, but it was clearly a male kind of figure.
[00:39:01] Erin: Going through this. Yeah, there's something about it like I'm not supposed to know what's in that corridor.
[00:39:11] Kristen: That's fascinating. See, and my, my response to that image is like, I am so curious as to where it goes.
I wouldn't have even thought of danger. That's so interesting. Yeah. I, but no, but I love that because it enriches. your personal story with this, you know?
[00:39:29] Erin: Yeah. Do you need to know my Enneagram type as part of this?
[00:39:34] Kristen: No, it's totally fine. Even if you don't know your personality type, dream work has been done for years without knowing personality type because the point of dream work is that you're doing one thing in waking life and something else is going on behind the scenes, you know?
So it's like, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. But I would say bringing in the instinctual, maybe without it being too messy of, of, of bringing it up. Do you know Enneagram instincts? Like, do you know about the three, self preservation, social, and sexual?
[00:40:11] Erin: So that part I'm not very familiar with. The work I've done, I feel very clearly tied to a type one.
That has been the strongest. But no, the instinctual part, I am not very familiar with those layers.
[00:40:27] Kristen: Okay. Because I would say like with the, The, the beginning of the dream kind of, and this whole fun orgy thing going on, and these sexual socks happening, like in instinct, even without like the exact language of the Enneagram instincts, it does feel like there is this deeper instinctual, messy part.
And when you think of one is very orderly and controlling and like that clean and pure and stuff like that, that like. division between that purity and impurity and that sort of instinctual difference. I'm often drawn to the transitioning of dreams, like what comes first and what does it lead to?
There's a story to it. The part at the end, that feeling of like danger, that encounter with the mother figure, there's there's secrecy, there's danger, there's something there. Like we don't get to that part without it going through these parts first. Most people see the layout of a dream and they get like, what?
This is so confusing and it's just nonsense. But it's when you're, when you're feeling into it symbolically, it all leads up to this. And then we're left waking up with this feeling or we're left waking up playing this through our minds. And so that kind of process is what I'm mainly drawn to and like what I would mainly work.
On with people, like if we had an hour or two, like that's where I would go is like, okay, so we started here and we ended there. Let's see why that happened the way that it did and what it could be commenting on, like, especially, I mean, I, I brought up my dream with, with a mother figure like my mom. And how that was linked to something going on personally in my life, that actually too led me into a whole world of the feminine, like these principles of femininity and masculinity, which you have both, you know, happening at the end of that dream, and those are incredibly nuanced.
It is not just about gender, like it is in the beginning.
[00:42:42] Kristen: Like, intense with so many things we don't have time to get into, but I've even recognized through my own experience with my own dream and then kind of what set me off is like just how much those energies are incredibly important in understanding my own creative energy and like my own sense of sexuality and stuff like that and it sounds kind of like that's what's Unfolding like that's the story that this dream could be commenting on now.
I don't know What's happening in waking life that this might be pertaining to, right? But that's where I think I'm the most curious is where you are in that world that I mean, it feels like it's like the dream is giving you such rich symbols. I can't imagine that you're, you're not having some kind of, uh, either thought process or like situation or something happening in life that deal with something around those, uh, Those energies, the masculine and the feminine.
[00:43:46] Erin: I think there's a lot there. There's a lot there. And it's such a wonderful way to get a taste of kind of where your head goes. Cause I, all I could think about was that accordion and I could not think about like the beginning part. And it's so interesting because And I shared this with Patty earlier. I was like, am I going to really say that there was an orgy situation on the podcast in my dream?
Like there's a, almost like an allowing ourselves to just. Be with the dream. Mm-hmm. Whatever it was.
[00:44:20] Patty: Yeah. Mm-hmm .
[00:44:21] Erin: Yeah. So I mean, now I want to take all of your workshops and just bring this dream and be like, guess what, Kristen, we're going to work. I hope you have some time blocked off.
[00:44:32] Kristen: I would love to. No, honestly, and that's the thing, like one thing I've realized too is that like your responses to the dream itself is information of the dream and what it's commenting on. Like if, if you're feeling like Oh, I don't know if I want to bring that up or like something like that is a part of the world of how you're relating to masculinity, femininity, sexuality, like that is all in one space, like a huge knot that you just start to untie and you can't understand why and that's why I would like be asking lots of questions and, you know, working creatively with it in a more playful way, because a lot of what I've learned, especially in working with more of like the feminine side of things, which I believe your podcast does, like, Wow. Obviously that it's like, yeah, we've, we've been so conditioned and it's been ingrained in our mind to just feel shame and guilt and to, to kind of feel bad for, parts of ourselves or to feel, you know, like, Oh, I have to be better at this or I have to, you know, like that kind of thing.
Like when you have, and that's where I was even talking about in the beginning, like this kind of attachment to an outcome. Cause like, if you're punishing yourself or if you're shaming yourself, then there's some kind of ideal that's being held. Um, and so more of the, the feminine side of things and the feminine work can be like understanding that.
You are not that ideal, like you are much, much more and it's ugly and beautiful and messy and all that stuff and allowing that to kind of just Be there and understand it like dreams aren't going to tell you what to do or whatever. It's actually kind of more showing you Who you are in that moment who you were during the previous day or something in layers and layers of of stuff parts of you, you haven't allowed yourself to experience or understand or see or witness, if that makes sense.
[00:46:45] Erin: Hmm. Nodding of heads happening.
[00:46:51] Patty: Yeah, I'm just like soaking that in, but also, yes, it's like a, a true mirror. And a much more detailed one that it's like, no, no, no, your ideal is wiping away too much. It's way, it's too flat and look at all these hills and peaks and crevices and things.
[00:47:12] Kristen: Yeah. And it comes from places deep, deep in the unconscious.
I've been working with the mother and the archetype of the mother for quite a while. And you know, we think of our moms and we're just like, Oh mom, I had this experience and my upbringing was like this or whatever. There's so much though, to the, the archetype, which is that word that I keep throwing away or around that symbol.
Mother does not just mean my mom. Mother takes on a whole. whole world of, of experiences and history in your own psyche. So your relationship with your mother, with your parents, with whoever raised you, with the institutions that raised you, everything that Little you from ages 0 to 12 are even beyond even now, these things are unconsciously working on you as well and unconsciously putting these kinds of standards or ideals in you and that's like the thing that the personality is automatically Moving with is this standard set of ideals or the standard sets of morals or obligations and working with these things helps us kind of like realize what's us and what isn't and what never has been.
And that's why it can be hard. And that's why it can be. upsetting, but simultaneously healing. Pain and healing come together, I think, like they're, they're happening simultaneously, like you, you need to let go in order to, for something new to grow. Something has to die in order for it to be reborn, like that.
That is just, yeah, like, so, so that's kind of where I am and how I work with dreams is allowing that process to be something that I love and not something that is painful and annoying or something.
[00:49:10] Patty: I'm laughing so hard to myself because, no joke, okay, I was like, this is too random, I can't, but I had a dream last night that I, I had a dream last night that Julia Roberts, like I would say like 90s Julia Roberts, was getting her curly hair blown out in like by blowout by this hairdresser.
And she was talking I guess to me, I don't know, she was looking in the mirror and I was looking at her and she was explaining that pain is growth. And she had like a tear in her eye and she and then she was like, it's just love like the pain. I would like love that you just said that because that was my dream last night.
And oh my gosh, first time that pain is growth has been in a dream. Look at that. Look at that. My 90s Julia Roberts. Yes.
[00:49:53] Erin: Who better to provide that message?
[00:50:00] Kristen: That's perfect.
[00:50:11] Erin: I, I pull a goddess card now and again from my goddess card deck and I pulled one today and when I pulled it, I was like, Oh, I want to ask Kristen about this because I think it was something you had shared with us when we had first talked to you as a, an archetype, a theme, but the card I pulled, it was Pele, the goddess of the volcano and the fire in Hawaii, and it was very much about follow your passions and question your career choices and where you end up.
And when we had initially talked to you, there was this tension you had described. Related to work and passion or where you want to put your energy and you had also talked about these themes of like feminine rage even or anger and I'm curious has evolved for you at all and where you are right now with those.
[00:51:08] Kristen: Oh, wonderful. What a great topic. Yeah. Anger. Well, there's that's the small story about that that brings in dreams and brings in my process as well. When I made the decision to not have kids at first things were mutual between my ex and I and it was very weird It was like heartbreak every day because we were still with each other but we were deciding what we wanted to do and I you know needed to leave but now we have to figure out who gets the couch who gets this, you know like that kind of thing and then literally a month later one day.
I woke up from a dream and it was of a Moon Bear sitting in a construction site and very weird and I woke up and I was like, I just had a dream and whatever and then later that day I came home and my whole intuition just felt weird and I, I asked my ex at the time like, what's going on? Like something feels weird, blah, blah, blah.
And then they told me, Oh, I'm seeing someone else. And like this anger inside of me, like it's such a, it was such a, you know, strange situation to be in the first place, but like the anger I felt was like nothing I've ever felt before. And it was just this rage. And that's kind of to where a lot of things shifted, like all of this kind of happened within three to four months or something like that.
And so that I mean, I, I definitely believe like that had to happen the way that it did or else I sort of. I wouldn't have had the sort of the disillusionment I needed of what I was kind of projecting onto him like that was, you know, big for me. I kind of needed it. But the next day, I'm so upset. I'm like, I need something that I can put my mind towards.
And I decided to start reading a book and I grabbed Women Who Run with the Wolves that I mentioned when we were talking and the funny thing about that is that is a book that I got at a thrift store, like, a decade ago, and I didn't know anything about this person, I didn't know anything about Jung, I didn't know, I just thought that the title sounded cool.
[00:53:25] Kristen: And it was only on this day that I decided, you know what, whatever, gonna grab that book and start reading it, and as soon as I opened up I started just bawling my eyes out because it was exactly what I needed. Then it was maybe like, I, I think I was in my new house after finally everything, the storm kind of blew over and I was in my new space that I got to the chapter in that book about moon bears, like the, the fairy tale, the myth of, of moon bears and how it's linked to feminine rage.
And like, that was the day that I felt the most rage. And so this symbol chose me, like this is something that, and bears actually just in general, I have had in the most intense moments of my life when I'm making really big decisions or something, like bears have come up. And I'm not even a bear person, they just show up.
Learning everything that I have been and how much anger is important and huge and like, yeah, creative. It's full of creative and transformational power. Like when you're actually connected to it, because a lot of the time anger can come up because of Our personalities are perceiving our boundaries to be crossed or perceiving something to be going on that that kind of isn't it's a pattern, you know, so it's like this idea that anger is just going to keep fulfilling the same cycle until you start it.
To be in conversation with it the very generic basic understanding of like the moon bear chapter in that in that book specifically is really meeting your anger like actually meeting it where it is and having some kind of dialogue some kind of understanding of it because it's it's when anger is put into things that just eat up all of your energy like the fire just keeps going.
You know, the fire's just going to keep burning the same thing and that uses so much energy that when you're actually in, in dialogue or in conversation with your anger, it can be used creatively rather than, you know, on the same person or on the same situation or like, you know, stuff like that. A theme in my dreams is where is my anger going?
[00:55:49] Kristen: It's showing like where it could be going to, what it's finding threatening, where's the cycle really trying to, to, to, To complete itself, and how can I help it get there? Like, allow it to move on into things that actually serve me better than what I'm putting it towards.
[00:56:07] Erin: Do you feel like the anger you experienced with your ex-partner and with the moon bearer supporting you, it sounds like, has transformed?
[00:56:19] Kristen: For sure. Yeah, I was holding that anger for way too long. Maybe it came out in little petty ways here and there or like when I feel like, oh, I have to communicate or whatever I needed to experience it to even know that I had it, I think, because it's just like it only came up in certain ways and to actually allow it. You know, doing the classes that I met Patty at and meeting up with, you know, friends and people that I, I've never, I never thought I'd meet before and doing things I never thought I'd done. Like, it was almost like this release of, okay, and now I'm in my life. Now I'm here. Um, it's, it was the weirdest thing.
And of course, like, I think there's still things, obviously things here and there that I'm working with in anger. It's, it's, It's a never ending process. But that's the point in the story in the book. It's like, it's this journey of just being aware and a journey of speaking to yourself and reflecting, like self reflecting every night I journal.
So it's actually looking at what I'm doing and questioning it, questioning my values, questioning if I'm actually, you know, Saying what I want to be saying or doing what I want it like that kind of it's constant effort and yeah, anger is a part of that as well as and one of the most, I think, like, interesting to me because of having the experience that I did, I can realize just how creative it turns into once it's actually processed once it's actually understood, you know,
[00:58:01] Erin: Totally. Anger is a way into your own life. The life you want to lead, the life that you should be leading, is such a message that I, I need to hear. But I think a lot of women or people who identify as women do not get to hear as that anger is actually part of the path. Yes. And not some thing to figure out control or get, you know, away from to get what you want.
[00:58:33] Kristen: That's the thing, it's storing itself somewhere, you know, and that's what I've learned is the instinctual responses we have, like, um, which then obviously are linked to Enneagram, like, instinctual anger, shame, and fear, which is, you know, body, heart, and head. And when you're in connection to that, when you're, when you're understanding those things, and these instinctual connections, like, or responses to life, then you're actually, Participating in it, um, rather than what the personality does is kind of keep itself in this safe place or in this place that it knows the full perception of life is different when the instincts are considered and when the instincts are engaged with and understood and have that.
Like that full force that they deserve to have, you know, I don't know if that's like explaining it, but yeah, it's so interesting.
[00:59:30] Patty: What's coming up for me right now that I'm seeing is back to Erin’s accordion where I'm like, where it's like, cause if there's like this internal place where you, you are Aaron as the observer and then sensing danger, you know, in this recording that like reaching out to this outside, it's like outside.
Yeah. What's out there. You know?
[00:59:49] Erin: Yeah. Right. And why does this male energy get to pass through? Exactly. Although female energy is sitting inside and doesn't have access. Exactly. Doesn't have access.
[01:00:03] Kristen: Yeah. Right.
[01:00:03] Erin: It's all cooped up. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Ooh, we could spend a lot of time on that. Um, yeah. We could spend a lot of time on that.
[01:00:11] Patty: It's true.
[01:00:26] Erin: Kristen, I think I would feel remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about or ask you to talk about your courses and, you know, the list. The workshops you do…
[01:00:37] Patty: And your podcast. Yes. And the podcast of course, Sinsomnia.
[01:00:41] Kristen: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. I can, yeah, I can give a little spiel about all that.
Um, okay. So. I'm teaching a course right now. It's an eight week course. So it's already, you know, people are in it. Um, I'm sure there will be more in the future. Yeah, Patty's in it. Just to say, I'm in it, and
[01:01:01] Patty: It's so fun.
[01:01:04] Kristen: Is it fun? Yeah, give me feedback.
[01:01:06] Patty: No, no, no, we're going back to you. I'm just saying, I'm participating.
I'm learning so much. Dare I say I'm learning too much. Back to you.
[01:01:13] Kristen: All right, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it's on the EnneagramSchool.com that a couple friends of mine have put together, and this is where a lot of what I understand of the Enneagram. So if you like the way that I'm talking about the Enneagram, the EnneagramSchool.com is where you actually find a lot of the podcasts that I'm talking about and YouTube channels that talk to people of all different kinds of types. And then my podcast, Insomnia, I host with Kaisa and Sammy, which are two other lovely ladies. We do it pretty much weekly. Every once in a while we skip a week or two, but it's pretty consistent.
It's great to start from the beginning. Because it hits on every instincts and now we're on the centers and we give each of these things like a full couple of months. So you get to hear our process as we go through like as we understand the instincts and the centers like in our own lives. We discuss them then on the podcast and you kind of get to travel that journey with us.
Um, very cool. Yeah, so there's that, and, what, oh, my My website, inkstoryrebel.com, and you can find me on Instagram under that name, inkstoryrebel. Um, my Instagram has all of my art on it, if you're curious. Like, I do definitely upload a lot of my dream stuff there. Sketches. And my website has services, working with people in their dreams.
There's specific ones that I have on there, but you can also just email me. Or fill out contact info. I work with people however they feel comfortable and in whatever schedule kind of works with them. I think that, is that it? That's, is that what I do? I think that's great. I think
[01:03:09] Erin: That's a lot of great stuff that you're doing. That's some impressive stuff.
[01:03:12] Kristen: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:03:14] Erin: Was there anything that you felt called to say or topic you wanted to ask about or talk about that we didn't get to?
[01:03:24] Kristen: Hmm. I think I first want to say that I think you guys are doing an awesome job.
[01:03:34] Kristen: I started listening to it since, you know, you started and like, it is just. I think we need more of this kind of stuff is this this kind of conversation and so it's like really cool especially what I know patty and now I know you but like I'm gonna assume that most of your listeners are similar in ways that these sorts of conversations and topics are incredibly helpful and healing and that's just really important so thank you I think is what I want to say first.
[01:04:08] Patty: Oh, thank you for reflecting that.
[01:04:11] Kristen: Well, yeah, it's your platform. It's your podcast. It's awesome. And as a person that creates creativity is out there and the way it exists and people engage with it and it's so awesome to know that people are engaging with it in a way that you might not always be thinking about when you're like in creation mode, you know, so thank you for that.
[01:04:37] Erin: It is easy to be In one mindset about your job as the creator and forget about the receiving of it and how those two things are. always in dialogue and balance. Like, it's never just us talking out loud. It's somebody's co creating with us as they're listening. I love that part of it.
[01:05:04] Kristen: Yes. Yes. I love that, that co creation that you're talking about, that it's like, this is also helping me in my life.
It's like brought into my own creative pool of what I'm, what I'm experiencing or understanding and like different perspectives engaging that giving and receiving process is just like so important and we can't just, you know, do everything alone. We don't operate alone.
[01:05:27] Patty: Yeah, it's that's my favorite part of the creative process is the collaborative element of it.
Yeah, you know, it's just it's so fun. Um, and leaves room for so many surprises, you know, yes, that's true. Yeah.
[01:05:41] Erin: Yeah. Maybe the last question I have is, You know, there are a lot of folks in our listening community who already kind of turned on to this stuff or want to be turned on to this stuff, but are looking to kind of know where to start or how to integrate, or maybe dealing with just like, I had a, I had a weird dream and I don't know what to do with it, or I'm just kind of feeling stuck in my life.
If you were to share any kind of advice or words of wisdom to someone listening right now who wants to grow and experience this kind of deeper meaning that Kristen is talking about, what would you tell them if they have that wish?
[01:06:23] Kristen: Oh boy, it's a lot of pressure. Um, I will and that's the thing I feel like.
Looking back on where I was when I kind of exploded into the world and understanding what is going on here, um, is really just trust, trust that you're being guided by something, like, really important. Like, even if you don't, Figure it all out right now. And if you don't, you know, find the right resource or, you know, understand your exact Enneagram type or like anything like that, like knowing that, like, that you care about it and that you're being guided by it and you're curious about it.
Like for me, that just led me from one thing to the next. The, the, you know, biggest thing about that is really just falling in love with that process. Like really. Letting that drive you to wherever. I wouldn't really go into anywhere specific, because people are gonna wind up in places that they're supposed to, you know?
[01:07:31] Erin: Mm, beautiful.
[01:07:33] Patty: Yeah, that's so comforting, because it's like, you can't possibly have it mapped out, because then you'd miss everything. That's just like,
[01:07:42] Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And as someone that is constantly learning the process-oriented sort of way to do things, that is what I am learning and relearning every day, is just being in love with the process and not scrambling for some kind of outcome or scrambling for answers or something like that.
[01:08:07] Patty: Yeah. Yeah, probably every minute.
[01:08:11] Kristen: Yeah, for me. I know, that's, that's why it's like, And I think just being curious and open and, and guiding, letting something else guide you is huge for me at least.
[01:08:26] Patty: Well, I feel like that's what led us to this conversation. So that's so fun to think about that, of even how we both ended up doing the course in Baltimore and then me being like, I think we should talk to Kristen. Like it's just all so fun to follow these little synchronicity breadcrumbs. Right, as you're teaching your first course.
Is it your first course? It is! Cool. Congratulations. Very cool.
[01:08:47] Kristen: Thank you.
[01:08:49] Patty: This is so fun.
[01:08:50] Kristen: Yeah. Yes.
[01:08:51] Patty: This is exciting.
[01:08:52] Kristen: Thank you.
[01:08:53] Patty: Thank you for listening. If you loved it and want to help us do more of these episodes, please follow and rate giving in on your podcast platform of choice.
[01:09:05] Erin: And sign up for our Substack. We have a newsletter that comes out the day of each new episode released with highlights and more at givinginsubstack.com.
[01:09:14] Patty: You can also email us at givingin@substack.com. Giving in is produced and hosted by me, Patty Carnevale,
[01:09:23] Erin: And by me Erin. Logo and cover art is designed by Kira Weiss. Original music is by Leslie Allison, and sound editing is by me, Erin Ozmat.
[01:09:31] Patty: Until next time!